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    Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

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    Rickster

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    Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  Rickster on August 24th 2010, 3:36 pm

    Now let me first of saying I believe Jesus lived a perfect Sinless life.
    But does Perfect mean he never messed up? What I mean by that is When Jesus was a baby and learning to walk did he fall or did he perct walking the first time? When his dad was teaching him to be a carpenter did he ever mess up on a project? while playing with his friends did he trip and scrape his knee? Now I wouldn't call any of these examples sin But Jesus was 100% man while still 100% God. and humans mess up.
    I know scirpture doesn't say and I'm not trying question God just curious What's you thoughts on this

    Nathan James Norman
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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  Nathan James Norman on August 24th 2010, 7:03 pm

    When Christian theologians talk about the perfection of Christ, they are talking specifically about Jesus' sinlessness (both proper sins and sins of omission). However, did Jesus ever "mess up" in a non-sinful way? Absolutely.

    He is fully man, and fully God.

    But by adding a human nature to his divine nature, the second person of the Trinity willingly limited Himself on earth. (Think of it like taking the fastest man on earth, then putting him in a three-legged race with an obese ten-year-old with asthma. Is the man still the fastest man on earth . . . yes. But he can only go as fast as the ten-year-old.)

    Ok, here's my point. Jesus in his humanity had to grow in wisdom and understanding:

    And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. - Luke 2:52

    Furthermore, in his humanity, Jesus was limited in his knowledge:

    "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father..." Matthew 24:36

    This does not undercut Jesus' divinity, but emphasizes his humanity.

    Jesus was both man and God simultaneously.

    As such Jesus had to learn how to walk . . . even though his divine self would have already known how to do so. Jesus would have had to learn the Torah. I'm sure Jesus skinned his knee as a child.

    Far too often Christians in evangelical circles focus solely on Jesus' divinity as a back-lash against trends that claim he was merely a man. We Christians, however, lose something very powerful in the incarnation when we do this . . . namely:

    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin. - Hebrews 4:15

    Rickster

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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  Rickster on August 24th 2010, 7:41 pm

    i'm sure some Christians will think this is Sacreligous (sp) but the last Christmas I was think about the Christmas story and it blew my mind thinking about God needing a diper change i don't think He could get more humbled

    WhiteBoy
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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  WhiteBoy on August 25th 2010, 10:45 am

    Excellent question, Rickster, and something I enjoy thinking about. I like to think about something as mundane as changing His diaper or having to learn to walk. When you put it in everyday real-world setting and just imagine what it would have been like back then...I dunno what to say except that it make it more "real."

    And I think Nathan had excellent answer.


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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  ProfessorAlan on August 25th 2010, 3:18 pm

    All we know for sure is that he didn't sin ----- a baby crying when they're hungry is not a sin, hitting your thumb trying to help Dad with his carpentry is not a sin, accidently knocking over a pottery bowl is not a sin.

    Disobedience to parents, mouthing off to them, backtalk, deliberately hurting a friend or sibling? Closer to sin, so I'd say this is unlikely.

    Rickster

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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  Rickster on October 27th 2010, 3:12 am

    So I guess we can say he showed His humanity by messing up but his Godship (is that the right word?) By how he handle his mistakes

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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  Paeter on October 27th 2010, 11:41 am

    Rickster wrote:So I guess we can say he showed His humanity by messing up but his Godship (is that the right word?) By how he handle his mistakes

    That's a pretty good evaluation, I'd think. Jesus was human, and so was probably clumsy from time to time. But he would have handled his clumsiness with humility, laughing at himself or doing everything he could to correct any problem his clumsiness caused for others.


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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  Hackmodford on November 1st 2010, 12:00 pm

    I read this to a friend of mine (and included NJN's answer) and he gave this point....

    How did Jesus learn how to read?

    Where did Jesus learn the Torah?

    My friend said that Jesus was in the lower class (poor people) which did not have access to the Torah day and Night... (We're in such a blessed situation where we can read the Bible whenever it pleases us)

    So when Jesus was debating with the learned men where did he get his knowledge of such things?

    =============

    Now as I think of this maybe in regards to spiritual matters Jesus probably knew everything from the get-go...

    But him learning how to read... was that a miracle?


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    mindspike
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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  mindspike on November 2nd 2010, 9:48 am

    As the eldest son of the family, Jesus would likely have been presented to the temple for education as a Rabbi. If he was found to have a talent for understanding the scripture, he would have been accepted as a student of an existing Rabbi. This is the equivalent of getting a college professor as a private tutor. It seems likely that Jesus spent much of his boyhood studying at the temple, and received a classical education thereby. The fact that he is addressed as "Rabbi" as an adult is another indication, as this is not just a title of respect, but of an accredited occupation. Jesus would have had to earn his "Rabbi's license" in the customary manner.

    Jesus is often depicted as a carpenter, but this is more popular conception that Biblical foundation. Jesus "job" as the eldest son would be to study the Torah and educate his siblings, who would likely have apprenticed to Joseph or another craftsman in the usual way. This position also afforded him the right to ask questions of and debate with teachers in the temple, as he is recorded to have done as a child.


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    Rickster

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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  Rickster on November 4th 2010, 2:01 am

    mindspike wrote:As the eldest son of the family, Jesus would likely have been presented to the temple for education as a Rabbi. If he was found to have a talent for understanding the scripture, he would have been accepted as a student of an existing Rabbi. This is the equivalent of getting a college professor as a private tutor. It seems likely that Jesus spent much of his boyhood studying at the temple, and received a classical education thereby. The fact that he is addressed as "Rabbi" as an adult is another indication, as this is not just a title of respect, but of an accredited occupation. Jesus would have had to earn his "Rabbi's license" in the customary manner.

    Jesus is often depicted as a carpenter, but this is more popular conception that Biblical foundation. Jesus "job" as the eldest son would be to study the Torah and educate his siblings, who would likely have apprenticed to Joseph or another craftsman in the usual way. This position also afforded him the right to ask questions of and debate with teachers in the temple, as he is recorded to have done as a child.

    That's interesting Mindspike
    Now I don't know much about the jewish triditons but would that apply to a first born who was born illegitimate like Jesus was?

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    Re: Jesus Perfect? (Not as bad as it sounds)

    Post  mindspike on November 4th 2010, 1:47 pm

    Jesus was not the illegitimate child of Joseph. Joseph was legally Jesus father because Joseph was a) Mary's betrothed at the time of pregnancy, and b) Mary's husband without public scandal. By refusing to divorce Mary during their betrothal Joseph "admits" legal paternity. It is worth noting that such an admission was punishable by death for both parties under Jewish law, but such a penalty was restrained both by the laxity of Jewish legal observation in regards to matters of morality, and by the law of the Roman occupation which reserved the death penalty for Roman use.

    The presentation of son at the temple to study the Torah would have been done for each of the sons in turn, to determine if he was suitable to study at the Temple. To have all of your sons accepted into Rabbinical apprenticeship would have been a great honor and likely resulted in a very wealthy family. The fact that Jesus was a penniless, traveling Rabbi was not typical of the occupation.


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