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    Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

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    Paeter
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    Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 13th 2010, 7:15 pm

    Been listening to William Lane Craig's "Defenders" podcast lately and have enjoyed it. Though I don't yet agree with his position about God "entering into time" when he created it and physical reality.

    After reading High Ross's "Beyond The Cosmos", I'm inclined to believe that God exists outside of or beyond time, but interacts with the 4 dimensions we live in.

    In the latest episode I listened to, Craig suggests that God has a sort of "Hypothetical Knowledge" about what WOULD or COULD happen, in addition to having knowledge about what WILL happen. But this isn't clicking for me.

    How could God have knowledge of something that is not? There wouldn't be anything to have knowledge of, right?

    It seems to me that words like "if, could, would, possible, maybe" are all words we have to use because we are ignorant of something. But from God's perspective there is no "possible" or "maybe". Only what is and what is not. Unless you subscribe to open theism, which suggests that God does not really have foreknowledge. (I don't subscribe to this.)

    Any thoughts or musings about this one? Does God in some way confine himself to time? Is there such a thing as "hypothetical knowledge"?


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Rickster on October 14th 2010, 12:40 am

    I heard a pastor give an answer to a diffrent question but I think his answer would fit perfectly in this question and here is his answer
    "I don't know"
    I believe God is outside of time and sees past present and future all at once.When we have to make a decision does God see/know the results of both ie let's say i had a choice to do LSD today and chose not to do it. does God know what would happen if I did? And if he does, does that mean there are parell sp universes? And if there are does that mean everybody is in heaven and Hell? Am I walking on dangerous ground?
    Sorry paeter for adding questions instead of answering yours but your post got my filmmaker head going


    Last edited by Rickster on October 14th 2010, 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 14th 2010, 1:18 am

    Rickster wrote:
    I believe God is outside of time and sees past present and future all at once. But does God the What if in life ie let's say i had a choice to do LSD today and chose not to do it. does God know what would happen if I did?

    Your sentence seemed to fragment a little here. Would you mind restating that second sentence so I can track with you a little better?


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Rickster on October 14th 2010, 1:44 am

    I edited the post, not sure if it'll help it's a tough question for me to put into words

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 14th 2010, 4:29 pm

    Rickster wrote:
    I believe God is outside of time and sees past present and future all at once.When we have to make a decision does God see/know the results of both ie let's say i had a choice to do LSD today and chose not to do it. does God know what would happen if I did? And if he does, does that mean there are parell sp universes? And if there are does that mean everybody is in heaven and Hell? Am I walking on dangerous ground?
    Sorry paeter for adding questions instead of answering yours but your post got my filmmaker head going

    If we treat time as a dimension and compare it to our perception of the first, second and third dimensions, it makes perfect sense to me that God, who has more than 4 dimensions, could look at all of time at once, somewhat like we can look at an entire 2 dimensional picture.

    Theoretically, a two-dimensional being living in a picture would not have knowledge of anything except for the space he exists in, since he has no way of getting above the picture to see what is around him.

    I don't think the existence of alternate, "branching" time lines naturally follows from the existence of choice. In fact I've never heard a logical or scientific basis for the existence of alternate, branching time lines. Then again, I'm probably not reading the kind of journals that would suggest it.

    I'm suggesting that God does not use words like "if", because "if" is used only in sentences where there is ignorance of some kind.

    So in answer to the question "Does God know what would happen if I did?", I would suggest that from God's perspective this is a nonsense question.


    "Would" and "if", technically speaking, are words that God would not use unless he was communicating something to us or other 4-dimensional beings.

    Does that make sense?


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  WhiteBoy on October 14th 2010, 6:36 pm

    This discussion reminds me of a video I saw quite a while back that I thought was pretty interesting.



    I think that God is outside of time, and is the one who created time as almost a side-effect of creation itself. He existed before time did. He started the clock ticking and even set the standard: "evening and morning were the first day." I think that the clock will stop ticking when we get to Heaven; the only indication of time after we get to Heaven is monthly variety of fruit from the Tree of Life.

    Short on time (no pun intended), so I'm gonna stop with that. Smile


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 15th 2010, 1:08 am

    Interesting video. I wish they would explain why they conclude what they do about choice being a determining factor in the 5th dimension. Physicist Hugh Ross ("Beyond The Cosmos") doesn't seem to apply choice to the 5th dimension in this way, though I'm not positive that he doesn't, either.

    On another interesting point, its funny how our words quickly showcase their limits when trying to describe the fact that God is beyond time. To even say that God existed "before time" implies a sequence of events. But "before time" there WERE no sequences of events. Before time there was no "before", if I'm thinking about this correctly. Crazy!


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Rickster on October 15th 2010, 5:49 am

    WhiteBoy wrote:
    I think that God is outside of time, and is the one who created time as almost a side-effect of creation itself. He existed before time did. He started the clock ticking and even set the standard: "evening and morning were the first day." I think that the clock will stop ticking when we get to Heaven; the only indication of time after we get to Heaven is monthly variety of fruit from the Tree of Life.

    Short on time (no pun intended), so I'm gonna stop with that. Smile

    I believe there is some record of time in Heaven (the ability to be outside of time is a trait that only God will have) Like you said about the tree that has diffrent fruit each month so there is a way to tell months, also there is a past present and future in Heaven and at the end of the Seven year Tribulation we leave heaven to go back on earth with Christ. (Which I never thought before but sounds sad if it wasn't for the fact that we return with Christ in victory)
    So While I believe there will be time in Heaven but it wont rule our lives like it does here on Earth.

    Paeter wrote:
    On another interesting point, its funny how our words quickly showcase their limits when trying to describe the fact that God is beyond time. To even say that God existed "before time" implies a sequence of events. But "before time" there WERE no sequences of events. Before time there was no "before", if I'm thinking about this correctly. Crazy!

    The time of before Gen 1:1 just blows my mind, There was God thats it no space no empty void just God. My dumb human brain just can't even begin to imagine what that was like or even how it is posible one of my stories calls it eternity past

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 15th 2010, 2:13 pm

    Rickster wrote:

    The time of before Gen 1:1 just blows my mind, There was God thats it no space no empty void just God. My dumb human brain just can't even begin to imagine what that was like or even how it is posible one of my stories calls it eternity past

    The what before Gen 1:1? There it is again! We can't even call it time! From what I understand, the laws of physics all indicate that time has an origin. So there IS no "time before time".

    And if time extends into eternity past, that would mean that God waited an infinite amount of time before creating the universe, which would mean he wouldn't have created it yet!

    My brain is leaking vital fluids!
    affraid Boom! (Splat!)


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  WhiteBoy on October 15th 2010, 6:24 pm

    at the end of the Seven year Tribulation we leave heaven to go back on earth with Christ.

    Yes, I thought about that after I re-read it. What I meant was once we are in Heaven for eternity...post-Millennium, etc.


    And if time extends into eternity past, that would mean that God waited an infinite amount of time before creating the universe, which would mean he wouldn't have created it yet!

    My brain is leaking vital fluids!

    I hear ya! Thinking about infinity/eternity is very mind-boggling. Smile I think what you are highlighting is, like you said, a limitation in our vocabulary and the concept of time. The concept of "before time" is fairly straightforward but trying to describe it ...all we have are "time" terms. Personally I picture it as an infinitely long time line and the whole universe's existence is just a point on (or small segment of) the line.

    The reality is probably so complex that we really have no clue. OR one thing I thought of was is that if there are no real choices. Seems that this would simplify things giving only one possible time-line because God has already determined all choices. (Not intending to get off-topic with that...just a thought I had.)


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 15th 2010, 10:15 pm

    [quote="WhiteBoy"]


    The reality is probably so complex that we really have no clue. OR one thing I thought of was is that if there are no real choices. Seems that this would simplify things giving only one possible time-line because God has already determined all choices. (Not intending to get off-topic with that...just a thought I had.)

    Oh it gets even more fun when you use that word. What exactly are "choices" and where do they come from? I should probably start a new thread!


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Rickster on October 16th 2010, 6:12 pm

    Do you think God is laughing at our discusion going "they're not even close"

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 16th 2010, 9:40 pm

    Rickster wrote:Do you think God is laughing at our discusion going "they're not even close"

    You could be right. And yeah, we could be way off. But honestly, laughing or not, I think God really enjoys conversations like this. Proverbs 25:2 says that
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter."

    Part of the ultimate purpose God has built into us that makes us who we are (our "glory") is to explore and discover. It makes us the perfect match for him because he is infinite in all of his attributes, and so we will never run out of things about him or what he creates to explore.


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Rickster on October 17th 2010, 10:48 pm

    Yeah it's just sometimes I'm scared about of far my thoughts about will go.

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Nathan James Norman on October 18th 2010, 1:02 am

    More of an observation than anything else . . .

    I'm a huge fan of William Lane Craig, and truly think he is the best debator of our time. If you get a chance, listen to him debate the existence of God, or the resurrection of Jesus sometime. Fabulous stuff. (I can supply links if interested).

    However, here's my observation: Most good theologians are only nominal apologists, and most apologists are nominal theologians.

    I have my theories as to why this is . . . but I think there's good reasons that these two areas are kept seperate.

    Thoughts?

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  ProfessorAlan on October 27th 2010, 4:53 pm

    I think that our relationship to time, and God's relationship to time, is one of those "as far as the heavens are above the earth, are as far as His thoughts are above ours" situations.

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 27th 2010, 5:52 pm

    Nathan James Norman wrote:Most good theologians are only nominal apologists, and most apologists are nominal theologians.

    Interesting observation! And yes, I'd LOVE some linkage!


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 27th 2010, 5:54 pm

    ProfessorAlan wrote:I think that our relationship to time, and God's relationship to time, is one of those "as far as the heavens are above the earth, are as far as His thoughts are above ours" situations.

    I agree. The very fact that our thoughts operate within time and flow from cause to effect, limits our ability to conceptualize higher dimensions. There comes a point, at least in this life, where it's just hopeless to grasp any more than we can. Sure is fun to try, though!


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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Rickster on October 27th 2010, 11:35 pm

    I remember hearing an example about a author was writing a book and in his story a guy hears is door bell ring he gets up and opens the door. Then the author stops writting goes out with his friends takes a nap eats dinner goes to sleep and the next day starts writting again. and even though the writer did all that to the character in his book it's like no time has past and he is still at the door

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    Re: Is God Inside Or Outside Of Time?

    Post  Paeter on October 28th 2010, 1:57 pm

    Rickster wrote:I remember hearing an example about a author was writing a book and in his story a guy hears is door bell ring he gets up and opens the door. Then the author stops writting goes out with his friends takes a nap eats dinner goes to sleep and the next day starts writting again. and even though the writer did all that to the character in his book it's like no time has past and he is still at the door

    Interesting analogy!


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