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    What are choices and where do they come from?

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    Paeter
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    What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Paeter on October 15th 2010, 10:16 pm

    Any thoughts? It may seem like a simple question, but as I follow the rabbit hole it goes pretty deep. Any thoughts or musings?


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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Rickster on October 16th 2010, 6:32 pm

    It comes from God (ok I took the the easy answer). God doesn't want mindless robots who just worship him 24/7 if he wanted that he would have never had put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden. He put the tree there because He wanted us to choose to obey Him. He knew we wouldn't opey and Adam and Eve would eat of the tree but He still let make our own choice.

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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Paeter on October 16th 2010, 9:33 pm

    Okay, so then what is it within us that finally determines whether we choose "A" or "B"? After all the influences have been factored in, what is that final element that actually finalizes our decision?

    Or, as a specific example, what caused Satan to choose to rebel?

    No other creature had done anything but God's will before Satan made that one choice. And God does not tempt sin in others. So how is it, with no evil influences, that Satan "invented" this new kind of behavior known as "not God's will"? What was the catalyst for his choice?

    Any speculation?


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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Rickster on October 16th 2010, 11:37 pm

    Paeter wrote:Okay, so then what is it within us that finally determines whether we choose "A" or "B"? After all the influences have been factored in, what is that final element that actually finalizes our decision?

    Or, as a specific example, what caused Satan to choose to rebel?

    No other creature had done anything but God's will before Satan made that one choice. And God does not tempt sin in others. So how is it, with no evil influences, that Satan "invented" this new kind of behavior known as "not God's will"? What was the catalyst for his choice?

    Any speculation?

    I've actaully was thinking about the fall of Satan recently and came up with some strange, and I'm postive wrong, ideas (like Satan is a pawn of a greater evil that we don't know about because our story of history is just one small chapter of a bigger story. that we'll most likly never know) But a more realistic idea is he let his pride build up so much that he lost his since of reason and eventually believed his own lie. (Satan is the father of Lies maybe the first lie he told wasn't to eve but himself)
    It's kind of a hard question because I don't know the nature of the Angels.
    There nature has to be completely diffrent then ours. Why else wouldn't God have a plan of salvation for them.

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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Rickster on October 17th 2010, 12:39 am

    Of Course this question about prophecy has keep me up some nights
    "Did Judas betray Jesus because Prophecy said he was going to? Or did prophecy say it because he was going to do it?

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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Paeter on October 17th 2010, 1:42 am

    Rickster wrote:Of Course this question about prophecy has keep me up some nights
    "Did Judas betray Jesus because Prophecy said he was going to? Or did prophecy say it because he was going to do it?

    If we are responsible for our choices, and scripture teaches that we are, I have to go with option 2. Whether prophecy had said anything about it or not, there is only one way that history plays out. Prophecy is just the sports newscaster, not the coach or players.

    But your though process highlights the hot topic of God's Sovereignty and foreknowledge and how it relates to our free choices.

    You'd think I have stock in the book for all the times I mention it, but "Beyond The Cosmos" by Hugh Ross is worth plugging again. In it, the author (an astrophysicist) applies what we have learned about the existence of higher dimensions to this issue, and it's amazing how it provides a logical understanding of these two seemingly incompatible facts and outlines a foundation for their complete compatibility with one another. Something that the most popular schools of Christian thought are loathe to do.


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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Guest on October 17th 2010, 1:02 pm

    The only thing I can think of is something that most human are driven to find in their lives. We are designed to be social creatures, and we want relationships with fellow human beings. It's a satisfying relationship when we come together, each individual human their own fully formed person, and make the choice to seek out each others company, to make the choice that another person is our company. It's most satisfying when we reflect that another person has chosen us, has chosen to participate in a relationship with us.

    God doesn't need our love, but if He's like us (and I think that was the point, us being made in his image) He very much wants us to figure ourselves out, become unique individuals, and eventually, consciously make an active choice to be interested in him, to engage in a relationship.

    I was also going to say that choices are also surprises, good and bad, but I guess that doesn't really work when considering God. We make take delight or shock in the surprises we encounter, but God's already read the entire book, and He knows the back story of every character. Who knows, though, maybe he chooses not too look at certain paragraphs, so that some surprise is saved; sort of like peaking at the back of the book to know how it all turns out, but not skimming through certain particulars before actually reading them properly in the order they are assembled. I hope the book analogy isn't too strained or confusing.

    Just a few thoughts that occurred to me. Shocked

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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Rickster on October 25th 2010, 3:49 am

    Adding a question to this topic
    Do you think we will still have our free will in Heaven?

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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Paeter on October 25th 2010, 6:00 pm

    Rickster wrote:Adding a question to this topic
    Do you think we will still have our free will in Heaven?

    Great question! I've wondered about how this might work, too! I have two possible solutions that come to mind.

    1. At the moment of our first encounter with Christ, in response to the indescribable reality of who he is, we willingly ask him to remove our inclination to sin, but retain our free will otherwise.

    2. Sin will be a completely irrational, pointless choice. Like filling your glass with sand when you want a drink of water. On earth, all sin is a "shortcut" of some kind to fulfillment we long for. Fulfillment and pleasure are good things that God designed. And in his company we will be fulfilled on every level more than we could ever imagine. We will never be interested in using "shortcuts" to get what we want, because we will have more than we even knew we wanted! In short, fulfillment will make the option to sin absurd and of zero temptation.

    Any other musings on how our will might operate in eternity with God?

    Really cool question!


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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Rickster on October 26th 2010, 4:30 am

    The problem with that is Adam and Eve weren't under the influince of sin and they still had their free will.
    And as you ask earlier what caused Lucifer to rebel so the angels have to have a free will also.
    So if we still have our free will would than mean there could be another rebellion in Heaven some day? A scary thought but goes against Christ saying that we will live forever with Him and I don't believe God lies.
    Any thoughts

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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  WhiteBoy on October 26th 2010, 8:15 am


    The problem with that is Adam and Eve weren't under the influince of sin and they still had their free will.
    And as you ask earlier what caused Lucifer to rebel so the angels have to have a free will also.
    So if we still have our free will would than mean there could be another rebellion in Heaven some day? A scary thought but goes against Christ saying that we will live forever with Him and I don't believe God lies.
    Any thoughts

    I have been following this interesting conversation, tho have not been involved in it. But I couldn't help jumping in on this part of it and offer up my two cents. Smile

    I agree that Angels have free will and that we have free will (to an extent). Angels made their eternal choice during Lucifer's rebellion. 1/3 of the angels followed Lucifer; the other 2/3 remained with God. Their deadline is past.

    The deadline of humans who are alive now is either 1) when we die, or 2) the Rapture (some argue differently, but we won't get sidetracked with this). Some will be saved during the Tribulation (Jews), so let's call #2 the Return of Christ. Now for the final deadline... At the end of that time will be the 1000-year reign of Christ aka "The Millennium" during which time Satan will be chained and I imagine it will be similar to what we had during the Garden of Eden. Children will be born during this time but not die. At the end of the Millennium, Satan will be loosed one last time and will tempt and successfully convince some who have not made their choice yet to follow him. It's hard to imagine someone choosing Satan after living in perfect peace with Christ for 1000 years, but look at what happened to Adam and Eve. This will be the final deadline for humans who were born during the Millennium. At the end of the Millennium Satan and all who follow him will be cast into hell forever; all who follow God will be in Heaven forever. I don't think there will be any more children born and all created will have made their choice.


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    Re: What are choices and where do they come from?

    Post  Paeter on October 26th 2010, 11:43 am

    Rickster wrote:The problem with that is Adam and Eve weren't under the influince of sin and they still had their free will.
    And as you ask earlier what caused Lucifer to rebel so the angels have to have a free will also.
    So if we still have our free will would than mean there could be another rebellion in Heaven some day? A scary thought but goes against Christ saying that we will live forever with Him and I don't believe God lies.
    Any thoughts

    Adam and Eve were not influenced by internal sin, but Satan tempted Eve. So I consider the scenarios of rebellion different between humans and Satan, since no one tempted Satan. The answer to why he rebelled may elude us, but it sure makes choice seem like a mysterious and powerful ability!

    I don't believe there will be another rebellion, because that seems counter to scripture, as you said. I believe that we will still have free will, or a form of it. I certainly don't think we will feel as though our choices are confined or stuffed in a box.

    I suppose the question at this point might be: Is "free will" still free if we are incapable of sin? Or: What is "free will"? This actually kind of brings this topic full circle to a question very similar to the first.

    Any thoughts?


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