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    Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

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    tmorrill

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    Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on September 30th 2012, 12:47 pm

    So, in my assorted adventures of life I've come in contact with a fair number of Muslims and in a few of the conversations I had they claimed to worship the same God that we (and by extension Judiasm) worships.

    So, two similar but different questions come to mind:

    Do they worship Yahweh despite their rejection of Christ?

    Can you worship individual parts of the Trinity without worshiping the other two?

    I'd love to get y'alls thoughts on that.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Drew.Rub on October 1st 2012, 8:20 am

    tmorrill wrote:
    Do they worship Yahweh despite their rejection of Christ?
    I honestly don't think Allah is the same Yahweh/God that Christianity/Judaism worship. While I don't have concrete evidence of that (or even a biblical/koran defense of it), that's my understanding.

    tmorrill wrote:
    Can you worship individual parts of the Trinity without worshiping the other two?
    Based of the teachings of the Bible, I can't see how you could worship different parts of the Trinity, as they are one. The Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost is the Father. Closest analogy I can think of is mee accepting that you are a physical being in front of me, but denying that you have a heart and a soul.

    I may be way off base there, but that's my two cents worth.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  mindspike on October 1st 2012, 3:17 pm

    Deuteronomy 6:4 wrote:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

    Matthew Henry's Commentary wrote:What we are here taught to believe concerning God: that Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. (1.) That the God whom we serve is Jehovah, a Being infinitely and eternally perfect, self-existent, and self-sufficient. (2.) That he is the one only living and true God; he only is God, and he is but one. The firm belief of this self-evident truth would effectually arm them against all idolatry, which was introduced by that fundamental error, that there are gods many. It is past dispute that there is one God, and there is no other but he, Mark 12:32. Let us therefore have no other, nor desire to have any other. Some have thought there is here a plain intimation of the trinity of persons in the unity of the Godhead; for here is the name of God three times, and yet all declared to be one. Happy they that have this one Lord for their God; for they have but one master to please, but one benefactor to seek to. It is better to have one fountain that a thousand cisterns, one all-sufficient God than a thousand insufficient ones.

    F.E. Peters, Islam, p.4, Princeton University Press, 2003 wrote:According to Francis Edwards Peters, "The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews. The Koran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham". Peters states that the Qur'an portrays Allah as both more powerful and more remote than Yahweh, and as a universal deity, unlike Yahweh who closely follows Israelites.

    So what does all this mean in relation to our original question?

    "Do Muslims and Jews worship Yahweh despite their rejection of Christ?"
    A) Yahweh is more than a name. The Arabic word "Allah" translates as "God", with the understanding that this is a unique and self-existential being. It is grammatically correct to refer to the Christian God as "Allah". However, the teachings of the Koran define God in Islam in radically different terms than those found in the Bible. This in effect describes a different being than the Christian God. The Islamic Allah is not the Christian God or the Jewish Yahweh, though he lays claim to the names of Yahweh and Jehovah.

    B) Jewish teaching affirms that the Christian God is indeed Jehovah/Yahweh in all particulars related to the Old Testament, but denies that Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah. Subsequent teaching unrelated to the Old Testament adds to the letter of Jewish Law without changing or distorting the nature of Yahweh. In effect, the God of the Old Testament, the Jewish Yahweh, and the Christian God are the same person.

    "Can you worship individual parts of the Trinity without worshiping the other two?"

    That's a bit of a sticky wicket, and a question that doesn't really hold up to examination. Because the nature of God is theological, one must accept the idea of the Trinity before one can worship exclusively a distinct person of the Godhead. Because Judaism does not accept the Trinity, the question is meaningless, as there is no one between whom to divide worship. For Christianity, the nature of the Trinity is understood to be inseparable as well as individual, so that the question is again meaningless. One does not worship Christ while denying worship to the Father.

    The question that most often comes up in relation to the issue of the Trinity is, "To whom do I pray?" In the Bible, all prayer is directed to the Father, as the head of the Trinity - but it is not wrong to address the Son or the Spirit as you feel the need and as matches your understanding of Scripture.

    Hope this helps. Any other thoughts?


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    tmorrill

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on June 27th 2013, 9:23 pm

    Well 9 month ago me and others...

    I just finished most of the Qur'an (I'm taking a college class on Islam), and I think in reflection the best way to describe who the Muslims worship is the Sovereignty and power of Yahew, without actually worshiping Him. I have to write a paper on it for class and I'm gonna be titling it "Candy Coated Cyanide" since that is the best way to sum up the Qur'an I think. If any of y'all are interested I'll post it up here once I finish it (and get it graded)

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  WhiteBoy on July 5th 2013, 12:57 am

    I think it would be interesting.


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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Paeter on July 15th 2013, 9:08 pm

    Woah! Intense title! Will that get you in trouble?

    I'd be VERY interested in your thoughts and seeing the paper posted here!


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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on July 17th 2013, 4:12 pm

    Paeter wrote:Woah! Intense title! Will that get you in trouble?

    I'd be VERY interested in your thoughts and seeing the paper posted here!

    I re-reviewed the requirements for the paper, and the paper I was planning on writing doesn't fit the assignment. I'm still going to sneak in a few comparisons to Christianity in the paper, but it won't be the focal point of the paper.

    After I finish it and get it graded I'll post that one up, and then when I get free time I'll do a more thorough comparison, that way I can get more fully into Muslim theology instead of limiting myself to just comparing the Qur'ran and Bible.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Paeter on July 18th 2013, 10:07 pm

    Sounds cool! Look forward to reading your findings!


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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  ComiKate on July 19th 2013, 4:26 am

    Interested in reading your pieces tmorrill!

    I have a muslim colleague with whom I've had many hours of conversation on our respective beliefs and theologies. These were great talks by the way, in very good atmosphere.

    Anyway. He claimed that Allah and the God of the bible were the same and that both he and I therefore worshipped the same God.
    I of course told him I thought differently. I used one main argument: according to both our beliefs, our respective holy books were inspired by God. The bible by Yahweh, the Koran by Allah. The bible states that God has a Son, Jesus, and that He is God. The Koran states explicitly that God has no son, and that Isa (Jesus) is a prophet, therefore not God.
    If both our holy books are inspired, then they would have to be inspired by different Gods since the main message on God having a Son is 180 degrees opposite in both books.

    My colleague thought about this and then came to the - to him surprising - conclusion that that made sense.
    In following conversations he didn't try to equate both God and Allah anymore, but he now tried to equate our Jesus with their Isa.
    Well,.... baby steps. The conversation continues. And still in good cheer.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Drew.Rub on July 19th 2013, 9:27 am

    ComiKate wrote:
    If both our holy books are inspired, then they would have to be inspired by different Gods since the main message on God having a Son is 180 degrees opposite in both books.

    Thanks for that bit of insight, ComiKate. I hadn't actually thought of it from that perspective. But truth (and logic) is usually hard to combat. While I don't have anyone of the Muslim faith in my circle of influence, I at least have a good answer if any of my middle school kids ask about the difference.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Paeter on July 19th 2013, 11:19 am

    ComiKate wrote:Interested in reading your pieces tmorrill!

    I have a muslim colleague with whom I've had many hours of conversation on our respective beliefs and theologies. These were great talks by the way, in very good atmosphere.


    If both our holy books are inspired, then they would have to be inspired by different Gods

    My colleague thought about this and then came to the - to him surprising - conclusion that that made sense.

    This whole post just made me smile. It was so exciting and encouraging to hear about. Sounds like you've got a gift for handling truth and love in that elusive balance that compromises neither. Buckle your seat belt! God is gonna use you! Thanks so much for sharing this!


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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on July 24th 2013, 12:58 am

    ...Yeah... I just kinda gave up on the limiting the paper to just the Qur'an. The more I wrote the more I found myself being pulled back into the Bible. I finished it just a few minutes ago and am gonna sleep on it before I go through and proofread it tomorrow. That being said, here's the link to the pre-final draft (If that's not a term it needs to be). Let me know what y'all think!

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88441908/Qur%27ran%20paper.pdf

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Paeter on July 24th 2013, 8:47 pm

    A very interesting read! What kind of class at what kind of school is this for?


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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on July 24th 2013, 10:15 pm

    Paeter wrote:A very interesting read! What kind of class at what kind of school is this for?

    I'm currently goin' to school for a Middle East Studies degree from AMU (American Military University). The class is a Religious Studies class about Islam.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Paeter on July 25th 2013, 1:21 pm

    Is your instructor a Christian, or approaching the class from that perspective? My thinking is that your closing statement might come off a bit strong for the average religion teacher. Often, these folks want students to examine religion from a detached perspective, discussing content in terms of what it does or doesn't teach, not coming to conclusions on whether or not it is actually true. So I'm just wondering if your closing observations about the eternal destiny of those without Christ (a true and good observation) and your candy coated cyanide metaphor might hurt your score on the paper in some way. What do you think?


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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on July 25th 2013, 2:47 pm

    Paeter wrote:Is your instructor a Christian, or approaching the class from that perspective? My thinking is that your closing statement might come off a bit strong for the average religion teacher. Often, these folks want students to examine religion from a detached perspective, discussing content in terms of what it does or doesn't teach, not coming to conclusions on whether or not it is actually true. So I'm just wondering if your closing observations about the eternal destiny of those without Christ (a true and good observation) and your candy coated cyanide metaphor might hurt your score on the paper in some way. What do you think?

    She is an ordained minister in the UCC who went to Duke for her M.Div and then Princeton for her D.Min. So it can go either way I guess, and as long as I pass the class I'm not to worried about it since I'm not gonna transfer any credits from this school to somewhere else.

    The last line in the assignment said

    I am interested in what YOU take away from your reading of the Qur'an, not what others are saying. The main objective of this paper is to communicate to me that you have read and engaged the Qur'an....

    I'd like to think that I showed that I had read and engaged the Qur'an without compromising my beliefs.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on August 7th 2013, 12:29 am

    Well, I got the paper back and the feedback I got said I quoted the Bible a bit more than I should have (which I'm okay with.), and she reminded me that Islam is an extension of Christianity and Judaism (which I'm not okay with.)

    Either way, my final grade was a 91%, I got docked because a few times I put it's instead of its and had some run on sentences (shocking!).

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Drew.Rub on August 7th 2013, 3:10 pm

    tmorrill wrote: and she reminded me that Islam is an extension of Christianity and Judaism (which I'm not okay with.)

    Huh? I'd love to know how she plotted that hyperspace course. (See, I geeked out just there).

    tmorrill wrote:Either way, my final grade was a 91%, I got docked because a few times I put it's instead of its and had some run on sentences (shocking!).

    no way you would have run on sentences that could possibly be a reason for any teach of self worth to dock your score and make you get anything less than a perfect 100% rating especially coming from a professor who obviously doesn't know good writing when she sees it plainly written in front of her face.

    (sorry, couldn't help it).

    Seriously though. Congrats.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Paeter on August 7th 2013, 3:47 pm

    tmorrill wrote:she reminded me that Islam is an extension of Christianity and Judaism (which I'm not okay with.)

    If you're not seeking truth (which generally college religion courses are not doing) than you're just looking at a bunch of ideas and the order in which they appeared in history and the connections they have to other religions.

    In this regard, Islam (since it takes inspiration from Judaism and Christianity) is an "extension" of it in the same way Mormonism is an "extension" of Christianity or Judaism is an "extension" of ancient pagan religions (since Yahweh chose to use ideas and frameworks from familiar, surrounding cultures).

    It's a common, very weird way to study religion that claims to be objective but in truth brings considerable, unacknowledged bias to the endeavor, resulting in numerous bad conclusions.

    But despite all this, you got an A! So praise Yahweh! Maybe something you said will someday itch your professor's mind enough to scratch it.


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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  ComiKate on August 8th 2013, 4:14 pm

    tmorrill wrote:Well, I got the paper back and the feedback I got said I quoted the Bible a bit more than I should have (which I'm okay with.), and she reminded me that Islam is an extension of Christianity and Judaism (which I'm not okay with.)

    Either way, my final grade was a 91%.
    Wow, that is such a terrific score, congratulations!

    I agree with Paeter about religion studies mostly not being about seeking truth. Here in the Netherlands, I've heard of many theology students (at universities throughout the country) that had started their studies a christian and graduated either atheist of adhering to some sort of other religion.
    Argh, this makes me so angry!

    Interesting paper by the way. I was a little surprised to read your conclusion that there weren't any real big differences between Abraham and Ibrahim. To me, the fact that most muslims believe it's Ishmael that was to be sacrificed, instead of Isaac, is a rather big difference Wink This includes my aforementioned colleague, who will sometimes fervently claim that it was really Ishmael. However, your piece made me want to gather some more information on that. So, I'm happy to have found something I wasn't aware of before: I was surprised to find that in the story about the sacrifical child the Quran never mentions his name! It can therefore be read either way I guess, Isaac or Ishmael; christians have come up with some logical arguments for the Quran talking about Isaac (see this article); muslims of course read it exactly opposite and have their own logic (for instance, here).
    Next time my colleague and I speak about our respective beliefs, I'll ask his view on this. Smile 

    Anyway, never mind I guess, sorry for geeking out on this rabbit trail a little bit pirat 
    Just wanted to say thank you tmorrill, for triggering this little quest of mine with your piece and discovering that the Quran in fact does not mention Ishmael by name as the sacrifical child!

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  tmorrill on August 8th 2013, 7:10 pm

    [quote="ComiKate"][quote="tmorrill"]
    Interesting paper by the way. I was a little surprised to read your conclusion that there weren't any real big differences between Abraham and Ibrahim. To me, the fact that most muslims believe it's Ishmael that was to be sacrificed, instead of Isaac, is a rather big difference Wink This includes my aforementioned colleague, who will sometimes fervently claim that it was really Ishmael. However, your piece made me want to gather some more information on that. So, I'm happy to have found something I wasn't aware of before: I was surprised to find that in the story about the sacrifical child the Quran never mentions his name! It can therefore be read either way I guess, Isaac or Ishmael; christians have come up with some logical arguments for the Quran talking about Isaac (see this article); muslims of course read it exactly opposite and have their own logic (for instance, here).
    Next time my colleague and I speak about our respective beliefs, I'll ask his view on this. Smile 
    /quote]

    Part of the reason I didn't focus on some of their differences is that they weren't actually in the Qur'an, which is what the paper was a reflection on, more than Islam as a whole. That's why I limited myself to the Bible and the Qur'an.

    If it was a paper about comparing the two religions I could easily make it double that lenght since I'd bust out the Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed, Westminster and what not and pull the Hadith and some of their other more reputable apologetics.

    Paeter, I did take your advice and change up the closing analogy I made a bit.

    The best summary I can think of to describe the Qur'an would be of a poorly chosen appetizer. It can begin to satisfy your cravings, but in the end it will distract and replace the true meal that would cause you to never hunger or thirst again.

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    Re: Who do Muslims/Jews worship?

    Post  Paeter on August 8th 2013, 8:15 pm

    tmorrill wrote:

    Paeter, I did take your advice and change up the closing analogy I made a bit.

    The best summary I can think of to describe the Qur'an would be of a poorly chosen appetizer. It can begin to satisfy your cravings, but in the end it will distract and replace the true meal that would cause you to never hunger or thirst again.
    Ooh, that's nice. Smile 


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